Chiara Boschis

“They didn’t believe that I could do the work. And today, the girls are proving how sometimes the impossible can become normal.” – Chiara Boschis

As recently as the 1990s, Barolo and the surrounding villages were not ready for a woman to be in charge. When Chiara Boschis championed innovations like new oak barrels, organic farming, and green harvesting in a region that was firmly set in its traditional ways, her neighbors suggested to her father that she should be committed to a psych ward.

She laughs about it now because she proved them all wrong; her wines are now considered among the very best of Italy. Chiara toured the world with the Barolo Boys as the only Barolo Girl, introducing a new take on an Italian classic to American tables. And now, instead of “crazy”, she is often touted as the Queen of Cannubi!

In this episode, Chiara, joined by her niece Elena, tells the story with gusto of how she found herself at the intersection of three cultural revolutions and became the first woman winemaker estate owner in Piedmont.

Automatically generated transcripts often make mistakes. Find a corrected version here.

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Transcript

Introduction

Chiara Boschis 0:03

Because you are a woman, they would say, "No way, she's saying a bullshit," you know, or some stupid things. So most of the time I had to do the work myself. So, when in the blind tasting, the wines were showing so well, the people were saying, "Oh, Chiara Boshis? Oh, really?" They didn't believe that I could do the work. And today the girls are proving how sometimes the impossible can become normal, no?

Harmon Skurnik 0:33

This is Harmon Skurnik, and welcome to another episode of Skurnik Unfiltered. With me now is none other than Mark Fornatale, the portfolio director of all things Italian here at Skurnik. Welcome, Mark.

Mark Fornatale 0:47

Thank you. It's good to be here, Harmon.

Harmon Skurnik 0:50

You just sat down with one of my favorite Piedmont wine producers, Chiara Boshis of E. Pira.

Mark Fornatale 0:56

Mine too, really. She's been a very special person in our lives. And she said in the interview how she considers herself a part of the Skurnik family. It's nice to work with people for such a long time. And you, I mean, I've worked with her for 22 years almost, and you worked with her for longer than that.

Harmon Skurnik 1:16

That's right.

Mark Fornatale 1:17

So you sold that 1990 Barolo Riserva.

Harmon Skurnik 1:20

Oh yes. In fact, I may even have a bottle in my cellar, which would be something to enjoy soon, I think. But yeah, she's a unique figure in the world of Piedmont for so many reasons. Isn't it true she was the first female winemaker pretty much in all of Piedmont?

Mark Fornatale 1:39

Yeah, she was the first woman winemaker estate owner. She owned the winery and she was making the wine, and that was it. And in our discussion, she talks a lot about those challenges.

Harmon Skurnik 1:59

And this was really a pioneering move on her part, as recently as 1990.

Mark Fornatale 2:04

No, she talks about her mom saying, Go away, go study and get a job and get married. Her brothers were set to inherit the winery, and she was going to get sent off, essentially.

Harmon Skurnik 2:16

Talk about headwinds, right? I mean, she had to fight those kinds of prevailing notions, and she not only succeeded, but she led the way for other women to be part of the Piedmont scene, including Silvia Altare, whom we work with, and several others.

Mark Fornatale 2:31

The Scavino sisters, to mention others, yeah, absolutely.

Harmon Skurnik 2:34

I remember when she started out. She comes from a very famous Piedmont family that owned the very famous Borgogno estate, right?

Mark Fornatale 2:42

Yes, the Giacomo Borgogno estate, founded in 1761, was her mother's inheritance, essentially.

Harmon Skurnik 2:50

And so she broke away from that to do this thing on her own, very successfully now. And I remember when she toured the United States as one of the Barolo Boys.

Mark Fornatale 3:01

So amazing. Incredible times. I had her talk a little bit about that as well.

Harmon Skurnik 3:05

The Barolo Girl.

Mark Fornatale 3:06

They brought Barolo to America's tables.

Harmon Skurnik 3:09

And now she's planning for the future. She's got the second generation joining her.

Mark Fornatale 3:15

That's right. After the sale of Borgogno in 2008, her brother Giorgio joined her at E. Pira. And luckily, he has three daughters, two of whom right now are involved in the winery, Beatrice and Elena, who's with Chiara during our podcast.

Harmon Skurnik 3:34

It's a good thing he has daughters because she would never just bring on a male winemaker.

Mark Fornatale 3:39

Some dude.

Harmon Skurnik 3:40

Some dude. Ha! So, continue the legacy that she's created. We know her so well. I don't know that our listeners know her as well. So let's dive right in and listen to your interview with the one and only Chiara Boschis.

The three revolutions

Mark Fornatale 3:55

A special person. Enjoy. Good morning, everybody. I'm so pleased to be here with one of the most important Barolo producers in our book, in the world, Chiara Boschis of Barolo, of E. Pira and Figli. Welcome to New York again.

Chiara Boschis 4:18

Thank you very much. Wow, what an introduction. You really touched me. But, great. Yes, it's fantastic to be here. The big apple. Fantastic.

Mark Fornatale 4:27

And we also have another special guest here with you for support, Elena Boschis, your niece, your brother Giorgio's daughter.

Chiara Boschis 4:35

Yes, exactly. The new generation.

Elena Boschis 4:38

Yes, hi, everybody. I'm so happy being here. It's an honor, a pleasure also to join Chiara and my family to the family business.

Mark Fornatale 4:48

Excellent. On the occasion of your visit, I thought it would be fun to sit down and say a couple of words because you have undoubtedly changed the face of Barolo, not once, not twice, but maybe three times, as I think of them, sort of these three revolutions that happened. And the first, of course, was the Barolo Boys movement that kind of put Barolo on everybody's table. And the second, of course, was the sort of green revolution and your dedication to organic viticulture. And I think that the third revolution would be the...

Chiara Boschis 5:20

Pink!

Mark Fornatale 5:21

The pink revolution, being the first woman winemaker estate owner in Barolo. And also seeing the the long arch of time and and the new generations coming on with your nieces eventually joining the winery, et cetera, et cetera.

Chiara Boschis 5:40

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're right. All these three revolutions come hand in hand, it's true. Because, well, the first was the huge change that, together with the Barolo Boys, we did for changing the perception that the people had of Barolo and of the wine of the area. Essentially, we really wanted to get more attention and respect for the work that normally, as a farmer, you don't get, because the farmers are always the last step on the social scale. We really wanted to change that. But for me, it was also another challenge because back then, it was a much more a male-dominated world, especially the wine world, because women have always been too busy taking care of families, working in the vineyard, in the field. In the past, also the animals. So they were always super, super busy, so there was actually no time to do that. And I have to say that I dedicated my life to the work in the vineyard, in the cellar, and of course I had to sacrifice my personal life because back then it was more like a choice: this or that? I was feeling like I was obliged to have a family, marry someone, have children, and go away. No, I really wanted— you know a little bit, come se dice, "testarda"?

Mark Fornatale 7:16

Ha! Hard-headed, you'd say.

Chiara Boschis 7:20

I really wanted to follow my dream, which, actually I got it from my family because I fell in love with this world thanks to the fact that my family was so passionate, and I learned this love since I was very young, helping the family maybe.

Mark Fornatale 7:37

We can't talk about E. Pira Chiara Boschis without also talking about Giacomo Borgogno, right? That was your that was your family's winery that was founded in 1761.

Chiara Boschis 7:47

Yeah, me and my brothers were the ninth generation. But of course the winery was left to my two brothers, so I was not considered to take over, and of course I was trying to find my own path. I was lucky enough that in 1981, I had the opportunity to take over the winery. It was not easy, of course, because it came from the fact that unfortunately Mr. Gigi Pira died, and the two sisters asked for support from my family, to whom they offered also to take over the winery after one year of help. And of course, my parents did already have a winery, and so that was a sign of the time for me.

Mark Fornatale 8:32

And you were working already, right? You had studied economy and commerce, right? And you were working for a consulting company in Turin, right?

Taking over the E. Pira estate

Chiara Boschis 8:41

Yes, my family they encouraged me to do this study, which I hated to be honest, because it was not my nature. But they encouraged me because they thought, "Maybe with this bad character, she will never get married and she can help the brothers." But that was not my plan. Really I did it because I was a good girl, good daughter, but as soon as I could, I went on my own path, and luckily I was able to get, with the support of my family, of course, to get a mortgage to buy the winery, which today probably would have been even impossible. But back then, yes. And so I'm happy that I threw myself in this adventure because I'm also lucky. I have to say that when I started, the Barolo movement was just taking it's first steps. I joined this group of crazy revolutionary winemakers, and I have to say that they accepted me, even if they were looking at me with suspicious eyes. But I had to prove myself to work hard and to be at their level, every year performing with good wine. And of course was not easy, but a lot of work. A lot of work, but I learned so much.

Mark Fornatale 10:08

From 1981-1982, the wines at Pira were made by your brothers, and then you took over in 1990?

Chiara Boschis 10:15

At the end of the 1980s. But as soon as I started to make the wine in a different way, my brothers, my family, my father, they started to burn the bridges, let's say, because there were different things. We were experimenting with different vinifications, longer time of fermentation, shorter time of fermentation. We tried them all, and all these experiments, we were comparing one another's experiment, so everyone was going in that direction. But at the beginning we were moving in a completely new world. So we were also worried because Barolo has a tasting commission, so we were worried that they couldn't recognize, the untraditional Barolo. But I have to say that our Barolo were simply clean and beautiful with more flowers, more fruit. But yeah, at the beginning it was uncertain, our movement.

Mark Fornatale 11:22

Going back, I remember you telling me this story that one of the parts of this Barolo Boys revolution was cropping less fruit in the vineyard, and that was a big scandal for your family. Oh my god, yes. That one of the neighbors... Could you tell that story?

Chiara Boschis 11:37

Yeah, I remember that we were trying to do it in the evening, so the people didn't see us.

Mark Fornatale 11:43

Going out at night to green harvest because it was so scandalous, right?

Chiara Boschis 11:47

Yes. And I imagine that was because the people were coming from a period of poverty, the starvation during the Second World War. So to see these young people throw away the grapes was really a scandal. Also when we were buying new barrels and all this new equipment.

Mark Fornatale 12:07

Why spend money on that? Why throw away good grapes?

Chiara Boschis 12:10

Exactly. It was really a scandal. We were doing it in the evening, or I was taking them away in bags, but you know, you can do it for a while. I was doing the first row, hoping that they didn't realize that at the end, I was throwing away so many grapes. But then my neighbor spotted me anyway, and he called my father. "Hey, you have to call the crazy department of the hospital and and put your daughter in there." Ha!

Mark Fornatale 12:41

"She's out there cutting grapes off the plant! We've got to hospitalize her!" It's crazy!

Chiara Boschis 12:46

But it was absolutely crazy, and today everybody does it, so you see how sometimes the impossible can become normal, no? What is so scandalous or innovative at a certain point then become the rule. But back then, it was really a shock, right?

Mark Fornatale 13:04

I can only imagine it's the late 1980s, it's Italy, as the Italians would say, "maschivista" society.

Chiara Boschis 13:12

Oh yeah. 

Mark Fornatale 13:12

What was it like being a woman directing a winery with men, probably older than you, that had always worked in the vineyards and thought they knew what they were doing, and you're telling them to do these different things? How did that work out for you?

Chiara Boschis 13:25

Yeah, it was very, very weird and very difficult, first because you are a woman, they would say, no way, she's saying a bullshit or some stupid things. So, most of the time I had to do the work myself. And for the others, I have to say, my friends started to appreciate when they saw their result. So when in the blind tasting the wines were showing so well, the people were saying, "Oh, Chiara Boschis? Oh, really?" Everybody at the beginning was very suspicious. They would say, "No way you can do that." They didn't believe that I could do the work. And today the girls are proving, doing all the work exactly like the boys, so there's no difference.

Mark Fornatale 14:10

You started the wave, and now there are so many estates that are run entirely by women. I think about Paolo Scavino, I think about Elio Altare.

The Barolo Boys movement

Chiara Boschis 14:21

Yes, so many good girls out there. Yeah, but in the past, I remember the first ones to say to the girls, "Don't stay in the countryside," were the mothers, because they were experiencing so much hard work. For them, it was essentially a life of sacrifices. They would say, "Okay, I prefer you to marry a worker or fiat, so you can get an apartment, you'll have water in the apartment, you don't have to go to the river," or things like that, so it was a much better life. But this revolution, I think of the change also from the economic side, not only from the social side. In the past, as I was telling you, it was a story of poverty. But for us, we understood right away that to become a cool farmer, we had to make a great wine and sell the wine, not anymore to sell the grape. And back then, the margins were so small that in a bad vintage you could go bankrupt. So, to make the wine was the first step, to make a good wine was the second step, and to promote the wine was the third step.

Mark Fornatale 15:29

And you did that. You traveled the world with this group of maniacs, right?

Chiara Boschis 15:33

Ha! We made some noise.

Mark Fornatale 15:33

It was you and Marco de Grazia and Elio Altare and Enrico Scavino and Domenico Clerico.

Chiara Boschis 15:41

Yes, I know, it was a lot of fun as well, because I was like a kid in a, I don't know, in a wonderland.

Mark Fornatale 15:50

A bunch of Langaroli farmers who had never left the seat of a tractor, arriving in Japan or New York or wherever. Do you have any stories, fun stories from those days?

Chiara Boschis 16:00

There are so many fun stories.

Mark Fornatale 16:01

...that wouldn't incriminate anybody.

Chiara Boschis 16:05

Ha! Yeah, it's true that we were always pulling the leg of each other, you know.

Mark Fornatale 16:10

You were joking with each other all the time.

Chiara Boschis 16:13

Yeah, like for example, people that were falling asleep on the train, and everybody go down and leaving them behind or stealing their shoes and letting people walk in the underground of New York without their shoes, their bare feet and they say, "You bastards!" Things like that. You know, I've seen so many of those things, and that's why I keep on thinking that this part of the work, you know, meeting people, going abroad, still for me is the funniest, more gorgeous part of the work, instead of, you know, hoeing the vineyard, which I love

Mark Fornatale 16:53

Getting stung by bees, harvesting grapes. We all think that's very romantic. I don't know why.

Chiara Boschis 16:59

It is romantic. I also thought that, in the past sometime anyway. It's a hard job. Yes, hard work.

Mark Fornatale 17:07

And we mentioned that we have the next generation with you today.

Chiara Boschis 17:13

Exactly. So, the fact that this pink revolution started, even the wine writers recognized it, and they started to say, "Hmm, Piemonte. The women lead the way."

Mark Fornatale 17:24

And you guys were on the cover of the Wine Spectator a few years ago, I remember that.

The Green Revolution

Chiara Boschis 17:28

Exactly. They realized this movement that is coming. Now there are many new generations coming in. My nieces are the latest generation. I'm happy that they're taking the torch also with the sensitivity of the organic farming, probably because the girls are particularly sensitive to that. And you know, at the beginning, I chose the green revolution for an ethical reason, but of course, now it's obvious that also the quality improves. I'm very happy that the new generation are going in the same path. And of course, they have their challenges because the weather is changing, because the uncertainty of the environment—politically, socially, everything. Many, many challenges. It's not easy for them as well, but they are well equipped.

Mark Fornatale 18:16

I think you and I both remember a time when organic wines were kind of on the fringe. They were those weird ones that were in that little section of the wine store.

Chiara Boschis 18:25

The hippie wine.

Mark Fornatale 18:26

Now it's so mainstream. But when you started, it was not. Was there also a resistance on the part of the market?

Chiara Boschis 18:37

Yeah, people thought that organic was something like the son of the flowers or the hippie could appreciate, strange people. And so they were thinking that the wine should have been stinky or rustic or things like that. But no, absolutely. It's actually even more clean. You have to take more care. And organic is not popular, essentially because you make less wine; it's more expensive, so it's not so easy to make. But yeah, you're right. At the beginning we were the outsiders. But today, people appreciate the effort and understand there's more difficulties and cost and higher cost to make it, so it changed the perception.

Mark Fornatale 19:27

Elena, what's your perception? Did you grow up and it was always organic? Or was it strange for you to be a part of that, or was it completely natural?

Elena Boschis 19:39

Well, even though we asked properly for the certification in 2010, we've always been organic. And also as a family, we were always keeping an eye on the nature, separating the trash from the recycling was very important for us since we were kids. It was something that we all had in our blood, let's say. Cleaning the street, I remember, yes, with my mother. She was walking the border of the street, cleaning the streets.

Mark Fornatale 20:12

Attention to the environment.

Elena Boschis 20:14

Exactly. It was something we already had in our soul, in our blood, and then it came natural because it was not something that was forced. Then the certification came naturally. It's also a guarantee for the customer, so that's why we did it. Because, of course, everyone can say that we are organic, but then eventually, as we could see in the past years, where climate change really challenged the farmers because when there's a lot of rain, then you have humidity problems in the vineyard, fungal diseases. It's difficult to stick with the organic farming, but if you have the certification, then it's quite compulsory for you. But we will keep for sure following this path. It's challenging. You have to work very much on prevention, but it's the right choice to do if we don't want to mess up the world.

Via Nuova, Cannubi, Mosconi

Mark Fornatale 21:16

Your father was working at Giacomo Borgogno until they sold the winery, and then he was out of a job. And shortly thereafter he came to work at E. Pira. Isn't that wonderful?

Chiara Boschis 21:29

I immediately grabbed him.

Mark Fornatale 21:32

But there were a lot of changes that happened at E. Pira then at that time, with the arrival of Giorgio. It wasn't just the wines that you produced and the vineyards that you were able to purchase.

Chiara Boschis 21:42

Yeah, well, it's a matter of changes that you also do naturally. But when my brother joined me and we bought more vineyards, he had great experience in very classic and traditional winemaking. While, of course on my side, I had this sort of revolutionary background. I think that we managed to find the perfect balance between our two histories and our two backgrounds. Today I think that we take the best of both. Back then I was a terroirist, so only focussed on single Crus, and today I'm still convinced that is one of the keys of interpretation of Barolo, is really to read the diversity of the terroir. Our two most diverse Barolo, the Cannubi and the Mosconi, are vinified in purity to show the character of these differences of soil and terroir. But we have seven wonderful Crus that could be vinified in purity. But I think that we decided to really make an homage to the heritage of our family, making classic wines. The assemblage is the classic interpretation, which, actually, we love very much today.

Mark Fornatale 23:02

I guess it was 2008 or 2009 Via Nuova, which had been a single vineyard from Paiagallo, which is the vineyard right behind your winery. That changed and it was no longer a single vineyard, and it became the classic blend, the Barolo Classico, if you will. I remember the Giacomo Borgogno wine was always called Barolo Classico. It was one of the first to give us that term that now we use for all of the entry-level Barolo. "Oh, that's his Barolo Classico," you know.

Chiara Boschis 23:30

Via Nuova was a single Cru. But when the MGA were approved, many Crus were cancelled to make it easier because there were 500 Crus or even more. They went down to 180. Many were disappearing. Via Nuova was cancelled and reunified under the umbrella of Terlo. No, Paigallo is next to it, and for this reason, this name was no longer a name that indicates a place, a topographic name. Now it became our brand, our signature, let's say.

Mark Fornatale 24:10

And I like it because it has this double meaning, right? It's the new way, right?

Chiara Boschis 24:15

Yes. The new way that is the old way. Seems a contradiction, but it's true. The name New Way comes from the fact that the street that goes through this vineyard was a new street that was built at the end of the 1800s, beginning of the 1900s, to connect Barolo to the next village, Novello. But of course, this road actually today doesn't even exist anymore. You can walk it if you want. The name remained for many years, but when it was cancelled it was still interesting, almost fun to say the new way could be the old way, because everything comes back, right? It's like the world is round, and everything turns and comes back.

Mark Fornatale 25:07

You're known principally for your Cannubi. That was your first wine that exploded in the market in the early 1980s.

Chiara Boschis 25:14

Ha! Yes. I was called the Cannubi Queen by friends.

Mark Fornatale 25:18

And then Via Nuova was born in 1999, and Mosconi, what was the first vintage?

Chiara Boschis 25:24

My brother joined me in 2010, but in 2009 we had the chance to jump on this wonderful vineyard, and so we bought it in 2009. 2009 was the first vintage, and then we were able to add a small parcel on the way. So now we have a beautiful position.

Mark Fornatale 25:47

It's really interesting because, from the Barolo tasting point of view, it's kind of like the polar opposite of Cannubi, right? Cannubi is the elegant, delicate, perfumed Barolo, and Mosconi is the powerful, imposing, impressive, darken color, rich Barolo. It's wonderful that you have these two polar opposites to taste. And then in the middle, Via Nuova. He's the middle brother, always making peace between Cannubi and Mosconi.

Chiara Boschis 26:26

Yes, it's also the one that is normally easier and more approachable. Yes, like the middle brother has the better character, let's say.

Mark Fornatale 26:34

Or middle sister. We can say middle sister because we have Elena here.

Chiara Boschis 26:38

Middle sister, exactly, like her. And so, yes, it's true. Cannubi is absolutely coming from this Tortonian soil, sandier, gives always this aromatic perfume, elegance, delicate tone, while Mosconi comes from older soil, the eluviation soil that is more rich in clay, is showing more muscle, more masculinity. And they are really the two faces of the medal, and I like that, because I think that we don't have to play with any different kinds. Sometimes people say, "Oh, why don't you try this technique or that technique?" And it's true, we we still do it for fun, but having nine Crus to play with, I think that the terroir, the door of entering into the Barolo world is the best for me.

Mark Fornatale 27:34

It was such a pleasure to talk to you both today. It's always good to check in, but I feel that E. Pira, Chiara, your family is like a touchstone for us. You can't talk about the Skurnik Italian portfolio without mentioning Chiara Boschis and E. Pira. It's such an important estate to us. Thank you so much for taking the time to come. And Elena, it's a pleasure to have you in the market. Please come back again soon.

Chiara Boschis 28:02

Thank you. It's a pleasure for me too coming here. Thank you. Thank you very much. For me, being part of the family of Skurnik is very important, not only for the fact that, of course, you sell our wine, but really from the friendship point of view that after so long is becoming really very, very important for me and for my family. Thank you so much.

Harmon Skurnik 28:38

Skurnik Unfiltered is recorded at Skurnik Wines & Spirits headquarters in the Flatiron District of New York City, which is why you might hear some city noises as we go along like horns honking. If you found the conversation interesting, please consider liking, subscribing, and leaving a review. You can stay up to date on our show and upcoming events by following @skurnikwines on Instagram and visiting our website at skurnik.com