Cyprien Arlaud

"For me, it’s very important to know where your roots are when you’re making wine. And I know exactly which kind of wine I want to make: it’s wine that most expresses where it comes from." – Cyprien Arlaud

The third generation of his family estate in Morey St. Denis, Cyprien Arlaud of Domaine Arlaud is regarded by many as one of the most respected farmers and winemakers in Burgundy today. His full-scale commitment to organic, biodynamics, and holistic soil management established him as a leader of a new era of low-intervention practices.

Speaking, Cyprien makes it clear how in touch he is with every meter of vines he farms. He is immensely talented, but also has an insatiable curiosity that allows him to keep learning and keep getting better. And today, there is no question he is one of the finest growers in Burgundy.

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Transcript

Introduction

Cyprien Arlaud 0:02

For me, it's very important also to know where are your roots when you're making wine. And I know exactly which kind of wine I want to make, and which kind of wine I want to make is wine that will express the most where they're coming from.

Harmon Skurnik 0:22

Hey, this is Harmon Skurnik, and welcome to another episode of Skurnik Unfiltered. Today I am joined by our Chief French Officer, David Hinkle, who sat down recently with one of our old friends from Burgundy, Cyprien Arlaud.

David Hinkle 0:39

What a treat to talk to him. I think this, I mean, for both of us, Harmon— this is a long relationship. I started with Cyprien's father, Hervé, in the early '90s. Cyprien came in the late '90s, and the biodynamic aspect of the what he's doing, and particularly the kind of the seamless, low extraction, just silky, smooth Burgundy he's making is— I know we both love.

Harmon Skurnik 1:06

Oh, absolutely. And he's a big friend to the company. We've been working together for such a long time. I think it was 1993, the first vintage we worked with them. I remember working with his dad, Hervé. They always had the best terroir, well, under Cyprien and under his biodynamic principles and all his responsible farming and meticulousness, the wines are consistently great.

David Hinkle 1:42

Agreed 100%. He has taken the domaine—and his sister and the vineyards with the horse plowing and the approach that they started really late '90s, early 2000s—I don't know that there's any more respected grower in Burgundy today in terms of the overall approach in the vineyards, in the cellar, non-intervention. And he's just such a thoughtful, articulate individual that I think folks are going to love to listen to him talk about Burgundy.

Harmon Skurnik 2:12

No doubt about it. You mentioned his sister. She has this horse plowing business that, not only does she handle the horse plowing for the family's vineyards, but for many, many producers throughout the Côte d'Or, right?

David Hinkle 2:26

Yeah, she's trained a lot of the great domaines across France, and very young, she was, I think, 22. And her love of horses kind of helped bring back— you know, she was one of the early adopters helping to not trample the vineyards with tractors and making them more airy, and now so many people are doing it. She was one of the first.

Harmon Skurnik 2:50

It's amazing some of these, like, what we call "innovations," whether it be biodynamic farming or horse plowing—a lot of people refer to these practices as "new" and "natural," but aren't they a return to the way things used to be before mechanization, chemicals, and all these things? So it's really more traditional farming than it is new.

David Hinkle 3:14

Totally. And I think Cyprien in the cellar has done exactly the same thing: low sulfur, not much new wood, a little bit of whole cluster, really a light touch in the cellar that is the same they're doing in the vineyards, a light touch with the horses, which you know, Cyprien loves to say it's easier to make wine when you've got a healthy, vibrant soil and microorganisms, as opposed to a freeway, which is what the vineyards were when those tractors just beat them down into almost concrete back when you and I started going and visiting the vineyards.

Inheriting the family estate

Harmon Skurnik 3:50

Well, as always, David, you are eloquent when you describe these growers and their attributes, but I think Cyprien is also quite eloquent. Let's listen in to your conversation with Cyprien Arlaud.

David Hinkle 4:08

I have the immense pleasure of being with Cyprien Arlaud from Domain Arlaud in Morey St. Denis This is a special moment for me because I've worked with Cyprien's family since 1990, I think was when I first met your father, Hervé. And Cyprien came on in '96 part-time, '98 full-time. So I've got to see his journey with his father, who still is there every day, and his sister. And it's really amazing to see where you are today. And today we're going to try to dive into a lot of the things that make your property, you as a grower and a winemaker, so very special. Thank you for being here, Cyprien Arlaud.

Cyprien Arlaud 4:55

Thank you, David. I'm so glad to be here today to show the wine at Skurnik and also to tell about my way of a winemaker, wine grower, since I joined the domaine in '96, '98.

David Hinkle 5:06

I think let's start with— I love to talk about generational changes in properties because it isn't always easy to have a son take over for a father and also have another sibling, your sister. And I wanted to talk about how it is, your taking over in essentially 1998 and what it was like and what it is like with your father, who, I think it's been a very, very beautiful transition.

Cyprien Arlaud 5:37

Yeah, first I was very lucky to arrive on the family estate found by my grandfather, and with my father was very involved at this time, end of the '90s. He was waiting for me to come to the domaine, and he was very open-minded to every idea I had to go to more quality in the wine and also more precision in the vineyards. So it's really lucky, in fact, when you join a family domaine and they expect you to bring something. So very quickly, we changed many things in the cellar, and I will say, mainly, first in the vineyards, because when I joined the domaine, I had some conviction with the organic farming. I grew up with my mother with this approach of nature, and it was a very good way for me to become a winemaker, to do it in my work every day. So, from the beginning, I started to turn and go in the organic direction in the vineyard. We stopped herbicide, we stopped pesticide, and very quickly in 2004, we were fully organic. So it was one of the huge changes in the domaine. And my father was in charge of the domaine at this time, was pushing also in this way, which is a big quality, I think, for wine grower. When you have somebody joining you, it can be your son or your daughter. It's a big change for a farmer to change the way you farm. And he was open-minded, and he was supporting me. So we were very successful very quickly with this new direction.

Implementing experimental improvements

David Hinkle 7:10

If I remember correctly, it was two vineyards that your father first said, "Cyprien, take on these challenges." I think it was Charmes-Chambertin and Morey St. Denis Premier Cru Cheseaux, that were your first before you started, maybe full time. He said, "Look, I want you to attack improving the quality of these wines and the work in these vineyards." Is that correct?

Cyprien Arlaud 7:36

Yeah, I think it's always good to not switch 100% of what you used to do in one day. It's very important to experiment first, and that's what I did with the Charmes, with the Cheseaux, and also with our Bourgogne-Roncevie. So we experimented since 2002 some organic farming, fully organic on those vineyards, and we were successful. So he said, "Okay, well, let's do it for the rest of the domaine."

David Hinkle 8:04

What were some of the small things that you tested, that you tried, that you quickly decided, Okay, this is where I want to put all of my energies? And what were the inspirations behind some of that?

Cyprien Arlaud 8:17

First, the inspiration has to be conviction. Something you think it will be a plus for you every day, it will be a plus for the vines to look better, it will be a plus for the soil to be healthier. And it was first a conviction, a vision, that when you make wine, there's nothing natural; it's all under control because we craft the plant, we prune it, we plough the vineyards, we drive the vineyards in a specific direction to make the wine we want to make. But even if nothing is natural, it's very important for me to consider that you're working with nature, and you have to find the balance with the control you're having on it. And also the part of nature itself, we can do things you will never imagine.

David Hinkle 9:03

So, what were some of the first changes that you brought to these three sites that you were working with?

Introducing horse plowing for soil health

Cyprien Arlaud 9:11

One of the main changes was to stop herbicide and to plow every vineyard. And so we're back to '98. And in this approach, we were pushing very far because I was lucky to have my sister who wanted to join the domaine at this time, and we decided to buy two horses with all the equipment.

David Hinkle 9:32

This was in what year?

Cyprien Arlaud 9:34

We started the horse ploughing in 2003, and since we never stopped since 2003, with no interruption, we've been plowing every Premier Cru and every Grand Cru by horses. So it was a very, very um, let's say, strong approach to reduce the compaction in the soil and to have a care, a great care for the healthiness of the soil.

David Hinkle 9:56

I think it's become much more widespread recently in many parts of France and vineyards. What are the advantages? What do you see in the vineyards as you start to do horse plowing?

Cyprien Arlaud 10:08

One thing first will make me go in this direction with the soil, will make me realize that the soil was very important. And it looks funny, but 30 years ago it was not so evident for every producer. But there are a couple of engineer biologists, they named Claude and Lydia Bourguignon. And in 2000, they published an article saying: "There is more life on the moon than there is in the vineyards of Montrachet in Burgundy." It was a shocking title. But it was to say that—not every producer, but certain producers—they're using some herbicide, they're not plowing anymore, and it's risky for the soil because if you check the life with analyses, you can see there's no life anymore in the soil. So when I realized that, and when we moved in this direction, one of the first huge benefits we had, we could see the population of microorganisms and insects coming back into the soil, because when it's not compacted anymore, when there's not any more pollution in the soil, then you get the water, you get the air in the soil, and the life will develop. And the soil is not just a plate for the vines, it's not just a base for the plant. The soil has to be alive, has to be, itself, like the plant: living. The soil has to be living.

David Hinkle 11:31

I remember vividly that 25 years ago there were many vineyards in Burgundy that were like cement between the rows, literally so hard and compacted that water ran off of them. Then you step in a vineyard that had been plowed even with a tractor, but then further with a horse, which doesn't push it down as much as a tractor, almost spongy, which obviously it's hard to live if you're like cement.

Cyprien Arlaud 12:04

No, it's true, it's true. One of the first very huge benefits we get by having a specific care for the soil is, we stop erosion. We had a very good texture of soil, and the soil, when it's alive, has much more capacity ability to keep the water. It's very useful in the dry vintages,

David Hinkle 12:25

Which we've had a few of lately...

Dealing with difficult vintages

Cyprien Arlaud 12:26

Yeah, we had a few of them. And also it has the possibility to drain the water when there is too much water. So it's important to fix the soil. For that, the soil has to be alive, and the soil will do the job with the water for the plant. One thing that is also very important is the soil is like a microbiome for the vines. So if the soil has a huge diversity, the vine will grow up with much more healthiness and protection.

David Hinkle 12:54

We've had some recent vintages, a lot of very warm vintages, especially '98, 2003, 2009, more recently a lot more. However, we have had some vintages where it was difficult. It was like it was 20 years ago, with rain and cool weather and difficult conditions. I think a lot of people would like to understand how you dealt with these vintages. I'm thinking '21, '24. You can take it back further than that if you want, where it maybe wasn't so obvious to you and your team how you were going to manage these difficult conditions when it wasn't warm and sunny with a nice wind and breeze to keep the vines super healthy.

Cyprien Arlaud 13:42

The key is the team. If you decide to respect the vines and the soil and to use only copper and sulfur and as little as possible, then you need to have a good team, well-trained, good organization, to be efficient, to be able to adapt to the weather. And when you get lots of rain or not enough sun, there are things to do in the vineyards. You have to put more hands in the vineyards. And you know the expression in French, we say "la main verte," the green hand. And the green hand is the care you pay to the vines, and when the sun is there, the sun brings this kind of care for the vineyards. But when the sun is missing, you have to treat the vines with your own hands more, to hold the branches, to de-leaf by hand, to not get any rottenness in the vineyards, to give the canopy a good aeration. You have to sometimes plough with your hands to have a good idea of what we're doing in difficult vintages. We reduce the stress the vineyards get from the weather by the care we're bringing on the vineyards with many, many specific works all done by hand, and the vines like it.

David Hinkle 15:02

That takes a lot of work. I mean, it's not something simple. I remember you talking in a couple different vintages where you literally asked yourself and your team, "Can I continue to ask everybody to put in this work?" Because in some vintages, I would call you and it'd be seven days a week in the vineyards, 12 hours a day, and you were pushing hard because if it rains, you have to go back out and do the the same same work again the next day.

Cyprien Arlaud 15:32

Yeah, and I learned about that. I learned about vintages like '16. '16 was very extreme. I learned about '16 and for a vintage like '24, we had also extreme condition, but we were much more organized with more people, and also with my experience, I was very careful about working more in the vineyards, but also careful about our capacity to keep going with energy until the end of the end. Because one thing I learned is if you spend all your energy trying to fight with the weather, at one point you risk hurting your body. Or if you're lucky, if you don't hurt your body, at the end you're so exhausted that you don't make the good decisions for the end of the of the vintage. So for me, one thing I really learned, and what I've done in '24 is, until the end, we still have a bit of energy to make good choices for picking, good choices for vinification. And by the time you press, you can be exhausted. But before, you still need to have your mind awake, not exhausted, and do the job. So it's really a question of organization, passion of the team, and the power you can put in the vineyards again, a weather which is not perfect.

Equal care in the field and the cellar

David Hinkle 16:58

Yeah, it was very emotional for me to hear you talk about it. And '16 was one of those vintages where I think you and your team realized that, one, you could trust your vines, that the work you had done since 2003, 2004, the changes that you had progressively made, that your vineyards were strong, healthy, and even if the conditions were extreme, that you, your vines, and your team could manage it to the best of your ability and come up with a very good result, which— I know a lot of people gave up and went back to more conventional methods. So that's something that I felt very strongly that you talked about quite a bit. I want to talk about your winemaking journey because, with your father and then you taking over and as a young winemaker, I think you might agree you made some wines that were maybe a little more powerful. You've maybe used less new wood today than you used to use. You've done some different things. Can you talk a little bit about your winemaking journey from your approach to Pinot Noir, your terroirs since '98 to today?

Cyprien Arlaud 18:16

Yeah, I was very focused, at the beginning when I joined the domaine, on the vineyard with this organic and biodynamic approach. And I realized at the same time, of course, that I have to be more precise in the cellar and adapt the percentage of new oak. Also in the vinification, be very careful about the extraction, the way I was punching down, and how long I keep the wine in the vat fermenting. And since 2004, I built my own winery with all the equipment adapted to the vinification I want to do. And we turned organic. And since 2004, I've been doing a long way of evolution in the cellar and in my approach in the vinification. I've always been a fan of cool vintages in Burgundy, and I understood also that the weather is changing, and even having warmer weather, riper vintages, it's always very important to look into each vintage that is part of energy and freshness. So the farming, the biodynamic farming helps me a lot, but also the vinification that I'm doing now, and the aging I'm doing in the cellar has been really adapted to this goal. To have wine with a beautiful elegance, a high intensity, and aging with maximum of 15-20% of new oak, or even no new oak at all for several Grand Cru, or not any new oak, like vintage 2024, there's no new oak in any wines. So now I can say that I can adapt much better the kind of barrel I'm using, which forest, which toast, which percentage of new oak, the proportion of the lees I'm using, the quality of the lees which is in contact with the wine during the maturation of the wine. And one thing also I realized is, the job I'm doing in the vineyards is the first part of the life of the wine. And there is a second part of life in the wine, which is the same thing: it's a second season. It's not outside, but the second season starts in the cellar. In the winery and in the cellar. So now I can say I have the same care, same attention and precision for what I'm doing in the vineyards to find the perfect balance of healthiness with the vine and the soil and the quality of the grapes that I'm looking for in the vineyards with the perfect balance of the oak, of the leaves, of the time of aging, the way I don't rack the wine anymore, and also the very low sulfur I'm using with no filtration, no stirring. So it's a very pure approach in the cellar with high, high care, high precision. Because if you don't use any sophisticated techniques in the winery, like I do in the vineyard, it's the same. You need the care. You need human care in the cellar.

David Hinkle 21:12

You can't make mistakes.

Analyzing vintages 2022 and 2023

Cyprien Arlaud 21:13

You can't make mistakes. You have to follow, when you bottle the wine, the perfect timing with the moon. If the wine is not going on itself, it has to be open, more or less, depending on the quantity you have to bottle, if it's a smaller appellation or a larger tank. So all those details have been fixed. People can say the wine is made in the field, which is not true. The quality is made in the field. You make the quality in the vineyards, but you make the wine in the cellar.

David Hinkle 21:49

I truly believe that since '16 you have not had a bad vintage. Every vintage, all different, very different, but beautiful, consistent. From the Bourgogne Roncevie, your signature Bourgogne entry-level wine, to your Grand Cru. Very consistent. '22 and '23, I think, are very interesting vintages because '22 and '23 are both warm. But different vintages, very different. Tasting them, you can see the difference. Can you talk about '22 and '23 in terms of what you just described? Your approach to winemaking and how you let them express themselves, I'm gonna say, in a beautiful way, but differently.

Cyprien Arlaud 22:40

Yeah, so I would say since '19, I understood, and I know exactly which kind of wine I want to make. And which kind of wine I want to make is wine that will express the most where they're coming from. And one skill of Burgundy is to be able, even in a warm vintage, to express each character of each climat, each terroir. So in '22, it's what I did with the same approach, and we had a lot of sun. So in this way, maybe the vintage is imprinting a little bit more the wine right now, but every wine, they're superb. '22, it's nature, make the things in the right way. About '23. '23 was a different story. '23 was a very challenging vintage. Things were not so easy with the weather, but one thing was very interesting: it obliged us to invest a lot of time and decide on the good options we had to do during the vintage. So I would say '22 is more of a vintage of nature, and '23 is more of a vintage of wine grower, winemaker. And if you do the good choices in '23—good choices for me was about the pruning. Don't prune too early in '23. The de-leafing also, to have a good aerated canopy, good timing for picking, and before picking, one of the main important things you had to anticipate in '23 was the generous vigor of the vineyards. Because one thing with the global warming is, climate change will push down the yield, the vigor of the vine, some vintages, but it will push very high other vintages when everything is there. So when it's warm, when you get the rain, it's like—I won't say tropical condition for the vineyards, but—the vineyards will have more vigor. So by the time you understand that, in '23 we had a very good flowering, we had a very good growing season, and the berries were there, so, potential for a very big crop. Very big crop. So we anticipated that because we're always in the vineyards, so we did more de-budding, and we also did some green harvest. Green harvest is an old technique, old artificial technique to reduce the yield because you drop some green grapes down before harvest, which—I had to do it, and I don't need to do it anymore with the natural vigor of the vineyards than I get with the biodynamic farming. But in '23 I anticipated and I dropped some grapes from every vineyard, including the Village. So Grand Cru, Premier Cru, and Village wines. So it was a huge job. We have to do it on our own because if you do it, you have to know how to prune, you have to know how to respect the sap in the vines in the plant. So it was a very, very, very tough job, very long job. We did it twice before the grapes started to ripen and just after the grapes finished to turn red, and it was one of the best anticipating choices I made in '23 because we had a very good concentration, very well balanced grapes, and not too many grapes. We finished the job with a very high, good sorting. And '23, with all those many choices, gave me probably the wine I always dreamed to make.

David Hinkle 26:09

They're explosive aromatically, they're beautiful in the mouth. It's a beautiful vintage. I want to talk about Ruchots, one of my favorite wines, going back to the first time I met your father and been to the old cellar in Nuits-Saint-Georges, because I think it's a very special site that I know you're very attached to. It's your home village, but it's also a very special vineyard, and I think represents a lot of what your property is about and your vision of things.

Morey St. Desnis Premier Cru ‘Les Ruchots’

Cyprien Arlaud 26:40

Yeah. Morey St. Denis Premier Cru Ruchots has been there for forever. It's located between two very historical climats. One is Clos de Tart and one is Clos de la Bussiere. They've been both stabilized by two different abbeys more than 600 years ago. And between you have the Ruchots, and the Ruchots is located in a paradise for vineyards because the soil and the geology is very complex, very rich in minerals. And minerals, they're very important. Like if you look, I don't know, Les Amoureuses, Musigny, even Vosne-Romanée, it's very rich in minerals, iron. Ruchots is one part of those climats in Morey St. Denis, which have this richness in the soil where the vines just grow very well and make very good grapes in it. So the Ruchots also has this proper micro weather protected from the cold wind from the north with three walls. And when you get there, you can feel the energy of the place. The Ruchots have this energy focused on the venue, and I think it goes into the wine. I love Ruchots. For me, maybe Ruchots is the equivalent of a Clos St. Jacques of Morey St. Denis through the 20 Premiers Crus. It's one I think it's very important to look after if you want to understand what is Morey character, and it's the pure, pure definition and example of what is the climat. And it always makes me sense, if I have a very complicated or important decision, I'm going into the Ruchots and I work a bit, I prune a bit the vineyards, and the good choice is coming.

David Hinkle 28:18

So it helps you with your tough decisions. I know you've talked about that it's this place that maybe because of the walls, it's down below the road, you're between what were two abbeys. You say that you don't need your phone, the church bells ring, you don't need a clock, and it kind of brings you back to hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

‘Charmes-Chambertin’ Grand Cru

Cyprien Arlaud 28:40

If you go in the Ruchots, you're like the vine, you're focused on yourself. And it's very important. And and the vines grow up in the Ruchots, they focus on themselves, they really try to express what they are. And it's the same when I work in the vineyards of Ruchots, you're in Burgundy, you are in a pure climat, whatever the century, you're making wine. For me, it's very important also to know where are your roots when you're making wine. And when you're in Burgundy, when you're a vigneron of Morey St. Denis, and you have to find your roots, you go in the Ruchots.

David Hinkle 29:17

The last thing I want to talk about is Charmes-Chambertin. It's maybe not your most famous Grand Cru, but I know it's a special place because it's one of the places that you started your career as a farmer. And you're also in an area where there's a lot of inspiration. You're just below Lalou [Bize-Leroy], Latricières, and it's kind of a special place in Charmes. Can you talk a little bit about the Charmes-Chambertin?

Cyprien Arlaud 29:43

Yeah, Charmes-Chambertin is a large appellation, so many producers are making Charmes. And what I learned with the Charmes-Chambertin is you also have when you're somewhere in a large appellation and you're not in Morey, so you will play with the Charmes-Chambertin, you make wine, and they will be compared to Rousseau, many others famous producers of Gevrey, they are making Charmes. So when I am in Charmes, I started to look at my neighbors. It's true, and Lalou Bize was just up of us in the Latricière. Some of the famous producers are just below us. We are located in the top part of the Mazoyères-Chambertin. And I learned with the Charmes-Chambertin, that you have to understand your environment, and you also have to sometimes to be more involved in the choices you make. And with Charmes-Chambertin, I do three different pickings, even though it's the same plot. I do two different vinifications, even though it's the same plot, two different agings, and one part of the Charmes-Chambertin, the younger part, can be declassified and goes in the Gevrey Village. To think about the blend, to have a very high level of quality with my Charmes-Chambertin. So the Charmes-Chambertin made me understand the responsibility I have as a wine grower and a winemaker by making a wine of climat in Burgundy. And when I started, I thought, Okay, you're just making wine from a place, and that's the place we make the wine. And with the Charmes-Chambertin, I understood that you have the place, and inside of the place, you also have your vision, your interpretation of the place. And with the Charmes Chambertin, I probably have a bigger part of my interpretation into the wine to make it as a Charmes-Chambertin, with the the idea I have from this wine to be, which is very, very exciting because you're pushing the wine the direction of you want the wine to go, and sometimes the wine just says, "No, I'm there."

David Hinkle 31:54

It's one of those wines that, I think, going back to working with your father at the very beginning, that I think has taken maybe some of the largest progress in quality. Not that your father didn't make a good or very good Charmes-Chambertin, but I think now your Charmes-Chambertin is at a very, very high level. Every single vintage, '22 and '23 are really great ones.

Cyprien Arlaud 32:18

For me, it's very important. You have a large choice of Charmes-Chambertin. So when I make my Charmes-Chambertin, everything I do from the very beginning is to be part of the— I want to be in the first division, but also it's not like a competition. I just want to express the Charmes-Chambertin like any wine lover will be surprised, will get emotion, with the Charmes-Chambertin. And for me, the most respectful thing we have to do for wine lovers, for wine Burgundy lovers—they should get the best from the Grand Cru and maybe the best from the Charmes-Chambertin because there are many choices. So whatever way you are in the Charmes-Chambertin, if you have a Charmes-Chambertin, you might have this selective Grand Cru from Gevrey, maybe the most charming wine from Gevrey to make you follow and go onto the other Grands Crus of Gevrey. But it's the first gate for me to be introduced in the nine Grands Crus of Gevrey. So that's why I have I have a lot of discipline to make it from the highest level I can.

David Hinkle 33:28

Last night, just to finish, we had a lot of people at a wine dinner, a lot of '23s, some '22s, and I think a lot of them from the Bourgogne Roncevie '23 all the way up to Clos de la Roche and Charmes-Chambertin. There was a lot of emotion and passion for the wines, and it's a real pleasure, Cyprien, to have you here. Thank you so much.

Cyprien Arlaud 33:52

Thank you, David. Thank you to Skurnik. My pleasure to share this emotion I have making the wine, then giving the emotion in the glass.

David Hinkle 34:03

You achieve that every time we pop a cork. Thank you.

Harmon Skurnik 34:13

Skrunik Unfiltered is recorded at Skurnik Wines & Spirits headquarters in the Flatiron District of New York City, which is why you might hear some city noises as we go along, like horns honking. If you found the conversation interesting, please consider liking, subscribing, and leaving a review. You can stay up to date on our show and upcoming events by following @skurnikwines on Instagram and visiting our website at skurnik.com