Skurnik Unfiltered

Annabel Thomas

• Skurnik Wines & Spirits • Season 1 • Episode 9

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"Reducing the barriers to getting into Scotch, I think, is really important for bringing new consumers from all walks of life in and making them feel welcome. The whole point of Nc'nean is whisky for everybody." – Annabel Thomas

Annabel Thomas is the founder of the most sustainable distillery in the world, Nc’nean. Nestled in the Western Highlands of Scotland, Nc’nean is completely off the grid. The entire operation produces net-zero carbon emissions and is powered by 100% renewable energy. They use only organic barley, and the bottles are made from 100% recycled glass.

In a conversation with Skurnik’s Whisk(e)y Ambassador Gaby Eisenman, Annabel tells the story of her female-led, B-Corporation distillery innovating in a regional industry that deeply values and protects tradition. Nc’nean strides the future and the past by crafting whiskies that are as approachable for new drinkers as they are exciting for connoisseurs.


What Annabel and Gaby tasted in this episode:


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Annabel Thomas:

Reducing the barriers to getting into Scotch, I think, is really important for bringing new consumers from all walks of life in and making them feel welcome. The whole point of Nc'nean is whisky for everybody.

Harmon Skurnik:

Hey, it's Harmon Skurnik here, and I am with Gaby Eisenman, one of our Whisk(e)y Specialists here at Skurnik Wines & Spirits. And you just sat down with Annabel Thomas, the proprietor of Nc'nean, the Scotch producer— organic Scotch producer. How was the conversation?

Gaby Eisenman:

We had a great conversation. Annabel is brilliant. She's very passionate. We focused mostly on her sustainability mission, which is one of the most exciting things about her brand. And it's a real commitment that she and her company have made in everything they do. So not only do they use organic barley, but every single step in the process has an eye towards sustainability, right down to the packaging. And that has presented a lot of challenges, but it has not stood in her way.

Harmon Skurnik:

How unusual is that in Scotland, to have organic barley and to be fully organic?

Gaby Eisenman:

I would say very, for a lot of reasons. Organic barley is more costly and it's also lower yield. So it's not a popular choice for Scotch producers at all. It's one of the many things that Annabel chooses to do differently. She's a bit of a disruptor in the industry; fighting against kind of these old, stodgy Scotch traditions is a big part of her brand. But in a friendly way, in a sort of "whisky is for everyone" way.

Harmon Skurnik:

She's a pretty tiny producer, isn't she?

Gaby Eisenman:

It is a very small operation, and they definitely are focusing more on quality over quantity. She's crazy passionate about what she does. And listening to her speak about all of the environmental challenges of her sustainability mission is just endlessly fascinating.

Harmon Skurnik:

Well, it's a really, really fascinating conversation. So why don't we listen to it right now?

Gaby Eisenman:

Great.

Harmon Skurnik:

Thanks, Gabby.

Annabel Thomas:

Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Gaby Eisenman:

We have some exciting questions for you. Should we jump right in?

Annabel Thomas:

Let's jump right in.

Gaby Eisenman:

Okay, great. So, sustainability— that's a core pillar of Nc'nean's identity. What are some of the most significant challenges you faced in balancing sustainability with the demands of whisky production? And what lessons have you learned along the way?

Annabel Thomas:

Unfortunately, sustainability is not that easy to integrate into whisky production. I guess that's why not everyone is doing it. I think the main thing we have found is that it's both more difficult and more expensive. So if you take, for example, our decision to use organic barley, we were actually told by our master distiller at the time, Dr. Jim Swan, that organic barley was "an expensive waste of time." And he was right on the expensive. He was not right on the waste of time, but it is much more expensive for us to buy. It's about 50% more than conventionally farmed barley. And that adds like £3.50 or so to the retail cost of a bottle. So say five, seven dollars over here, which is pretty significant actually. So it's the right decision from a sustainability point of view, because we're really looking after those farms where the barley's grown. But it is challenging from a financial point of view. The other good thing—and this was not something we knew when we started Nc'nean, and in particular, when I made that choice to use organic barley—is it does add flavor. And I guess that's kind of karma. We made the right decision and it's had some other positive effects that we weren't expecting. And I think one of the kind of key themes of all of our whiskies is that they have this lovely texture, this lovely creaminess and butteriness to them. And that comes from the organic barley. And if you look at the other sustainability decisions we've made, in particular using renewable energy is also much more expensive and kind of harder. So our whole distillery is powered by this biomass boiler. And we made that decision because we have timber on site and we're in a very remote part of Scotland. And I wanted us to be self-sufficient from an energy point of view. But the biomass boiler itself was hugely expensive. It's a very complex bit of kit to turn wood into high pressure steam. So that was a big capital investment that we had to make up front. And the second thing is it's much harder to run than an oil or a gas boiler. You don't just turn it on and off. It's a bit like heating your home with open fires versus a gas boiler. You know, it takes a lot more love and effort from the distilling team. But again, I think it's worth it. And I think for me at least, knowing that our whisky is made with renewable energy is such an important part of what I wanted Nc'nean to be when I set it up. So there have been some things that have been, I guess, easier than people expected or people thought. So our bottles, for example, are made out of 100% recycled glass. This was something that I really wanted to do. And initially we couldn't find anyone who was providing 100% recycled glass, and we kept being told, "Oh, no one wants it, no one wants it, consumers won't like it, don't do it," etc. And actually, we finally found the right partner who themselves have been working on bringing this 100% recycled glass to market for five years or something. They really believed in it, like we really believed in it. And the consumer— you know, it's not any more expensive really than normal glass—and the consumer reaction has been fantastic. No one has ever commented, "Oh, what's that little green tinge on the neck?" or anything. So I feel like that's one of the decisions which hasn't necessarily been more expensive or harder.

Gaby Eisenman:

The packaging is so beautiful. At Whiskey Live, people were flocking just because of the bottle. It's so attractive and it's so cool that it's recycled glass. Quickly going back to the organic barley and when it was a "waste of time." You explained the expensive part. So, what did he mean by a waste of time?

Annabel Thomas:

Great point. So I think Jim—and unfortunately, I never got to fully explore this with Jim because he sadly passed away just before we started distilling—but I believe that he had had experiences with poorly grown organic barley that then was very difficult to put through the distillery system. So I think he'd had experience where the grains were very different sizes. And that means that when you mill the malted barley in the distillery and then go on to mash it, you get massive issues. So he was expecting a really reduced yield and things like really sticky mashes, just poor processing in the distillery, all those sorts of things. And interestingly, we have found although the yield is a bit lower, it is not nearly as low as he expected it to be. And there's been no processing issues. We don't get this kind of massive difference in grain size or anything. So, yes, we take a little hit on yield, but it's not huge. And to be honest, we just process it as you would expect conventional barley.

Gaby Eisenman:

Got it. It sounds like he just had a bad experience with one supplier, maybe. Nc'nean has positioned itself as a disruptor in the Scotch Whisky industry. Have there been any unexpected hurdles or advantages that come with challenging tradition in such an established industry?

Annabel Thomas:

I think yes and no would be the right answer. I guess I was expecting, when I went into the industry with a kind of slightly rebellious positioningm that the existing players might not like it and we might be met with a kind of cold shoulder. What's really interesting is that inside the industry, everyone is incredibly friendly and welcoming. So that has been a really positive step forward, I think. In other areas, though, I think some consumers are still very resistant to Scotch changing at all. So for example, on the side of our bottle, we say drink it as you like, and then we describe a whisky and soda recipe. And there are still plenty of people in the Scotch industry who think that is blasphemy. And they can't believe we put a cocktail recipe on the side of the bottle. Really. So this is more from the consumer side, I think, but we do get plenty of comments on Facebook posts if we put a picture of whisky and soda rather than just in a traditional Glen cairn of, "Oh, you can't possibly mix it," or even an assumption that the whisky isn't any good because we've added soda water to it. It's not as if I'm suggesting adding Coca-Cola, in which point they might have a point, but this is just soda water. And that I really would like to see change because I think that's really unhelpful to the whole industry, actually. And, you know, it puts up barriers to new people coming in. We can't assume that all consumers want to drink Scotch or whisky neat. That's quite intimidating to some people. And I'm really passionate about trying to open up Scotch to more people rather than keep it as this kind of closed, "you must always drink it neat, sitting in a leather armchair" type image. I think that's actually really damaging. And I think most people in the industry really recognize that, which is why mostly people have been very welcoming. But yeah, some consumers are very much still entrenched in that '90s, '80s marketing of, it must be drunk neat, it also must really be 20 years old to be any good. And all these other stereotypes that were developed now many decades ago have somehow lodged themselves deep in some consumers' minds. I think the other thing we have to tread a very fine line on is the innovative side of what we're doing in terms of how we make the whisky. Scotch is extremely tightly regulated by the Scotch Whiskey Association, and the rules as to how we can and can't make whisky are very narrow. I would really like to see some of those change, but realistically haven't got the time to campaign for that. So we are walking a kind of tight rope trying to expand the boundaries of what that can be, without playing with fire and getting told that it's not real whisky. So those are some of the— yeah, that can be a little bit of a challenge figuring out what we can and can't do.

Gaby Eisenman:

Could you name one regulation in particular that you would like to tweak for your purposes?

Annabel Thomas:

I would really like to be able to smoke the barley with something that's not peat. I think that would be really cool. We will never use peat because it's not at all sustainable to dig up peat and burn it, but there are other things that we could burn with— it's still some environmental impact, but not huge environmental impact— and see what flavor that would impart. That would be cool. I would really like to be able to use chocolate malt, so more highly toasted malt. I would really like to be able to go more extreme with the yeasts that we use to create a greater breadth of flavor. So those are kind of three of the flavory type ones, but there's also a couple of other restrictions on Scotch, which I just find incredibly old-fashioned, one of which being it must be bottled in Scotland if it's single malt. And not only in Scotland, but a registered facility. Now I do understand where that's come from. It's come from A, trying to protect Scotch and make sure there's not too much fake Scotch around, and B, trying to protect Scottish jobs, which both of which I support. The Scottish jobs one is in irrelevance now; bottling halls are automated, it doesn't create jobs in Scotland. And what it does is create some very unsustainable behaviors. So there are some partners that we work with across the world, especially in bars, who don't need glass bottles. They're using a lot of Nc'nean behind the bar and they just want to buy it in bulk. And that would be a much more economical, sustainable, sensible solution. But you have to be really careful about how you navigate those sorts of things. Also, things like sampling and like mass advent calendars and tasting packs and things. If that is going to be sold, for example, in the US, that has to still be bottled in Scotland. So you're transporting these little vials of Scotch all the way across the Atlantic. It's just completely nonsensical when you should just be sending it in bulk and bottling it over here or in Asia or wherever.

Gaby Eisenman:

Wow, that's all fascinating. There's so much of that that I did not know.

Annabel Thomas:

And another example, one thing that I think it would be really cool to do is partner with retailers. So if you imagine they've got regular customers, they buy Nc'nean, they like it. Wouldn't it be cool to have a refill station for Nc'nean in a shop?

Gaby Eisenman:

Yeah.

Annabel Thomas:

Our bottles are beautiful. We know people don't want to throw them away. Yes, they'll use them for candles or vases or something else, but even better they can just put Nc'nean in them. So I would love to be able to partner with a retailer in Manhattan, for example, where people can go back and refill their bottle. Not allowed because you can't bottle a single malt Scotch outside of Scotland.

Gaby Eisenman:

Right. So, from funding and scaling to branding and distribution, what were some of the toughest business decisions you've had to make as a founder, and how did you navigate them?

Annabel Thomas:

I think funding for new businesses is always a massive challenge. And I think that's exacerbated in the whisky industry just because of the nature and the shape of the business. Very capital intensive, lots of funding needed up front. And I think one of the things that whisky distilleries always struggle with is how much do you make? How much stock do you lay down? And I think that is something that will be a constant struggle. That's never going to go away because you're trying to look five, ten years into the future and predict demand. And that's a really hard one to do. So we started off making a certain amount, and developed a model since then, which was hard to do, but has put us in a really amazing position where we can flex much more easily how much we make. We've developed the team and ways of working so that we can go up and down based on what's going on in the market. And that has been a really powerful thing for us to have got to as a business, if you like. From a branding point of view, we had to make a very difficult— well, it felt like a difficult decision at the time. You look back and it's blindingly obvious. But when we were raising investment, I had a brand developed. And I wanted to develop a brand early on because we were trying to be different, and I wanted to be clear to our investors this is not going to look like a traditional Scotch. And I realized after we'd raised the investment, and we were kind of partway into the phase of building Nc'nean, that the brand just wasn't good enough. It was just not going to cut the mustard. It didn't have— it didn't represent what we were trying to do well enough. It just didn't— it just wasn't good. But it had been quite expensive to develop. And I basically had to make this decision to throw it away and start again, which basically felt like pouring money down the drain. Um, but it was based on a llama. And I know that sounds really weird now. But it was based on a llama. As a result, it kind of looked like a tequila, the packaging did. It was terribly confusing. Anyway, I just said, "Look, the llama's not good enough." And we went out to find a new agency that could help us develop a brand that felt more close to our mission, basically. And we signed up with this incredible agency who helped us create Nc'nean. And you know what happened the day after I signed the contract? The llama died. The llama was a real llama on the farm.

Gaby Eisenman:

Oh my god, you killed it.

Annabel Thomas:

I killed the llama, yeah. Ha!

Gaby Eisenman:

Oh my god.

Annabel Thomas:

So the llama was on the farm, my parents' farm that the distillery's on. And it was kind of a cool character. It had come to us from a neighboring farm, it refused to go back, it hung out with the sheep. So it had a little bit of story behind it, but not really anything to do with the whisky. And it died the next day. So it was like, "My purpose in life is done. Now I'm not on the front of your whisky bottle. I'm out of here."

Gaby Eisenman:

Oh my goodness. No, you didn't kill it. If you had kept that brand originally and it had died the next day, you would have been like—

Annabel Thomas:

Oh my God, I know. Can you imagine? That would have been a serious stress for me, like, how do we keep the llama population going? I'd have become a llama farmer!

Gaby Eisenman:

Oh, wow. That's all totally fascinating. I didn't realize that you had this first brand that you had to just discard and you probably worked on for, like, what?

Annabel Thomas:

And talked about a lot. I mean, it was probably a six-month process to develop it. And then I probably spent a year and a half telling investors about it. And then we had to go back to our investors once they put their money in and say, "Oops, we're not actually gonna use that. We're gonna start again." However, it felt so hard at the time. And you look back and you're like, I'm so glad I'm not trying to sell a whisky with a llama on the front.

Gaby Eisenman:

Right. Now a dead llama.

Annabel Thomas:

Ha! A dead llama, exactly.

Gaby Eisenman:

Oh my God. Yeah, I didn't realize. That's really, really interesting. Well, I mean, making tough decisions like that, that's part of being a business owner.

Annabel Thomas:

And you make mistakes. You can't expect to go through a journey like this and not make mistakes. And actually, I guess what I have learned is that, when you do make them, you need to act quickly and decisively. And I haven't always been good at that. And that applies to all sorts of decisions, not just branding, but recognizing when you've made them and acting on them, even if it feels really hard. The sooner you can act on them, actually, the better in the long run.

Gaby Eisenman:

Yeah, that's tough. Well, it worked out because—

Annabel Thomas:

It worked out.

Gaby Eisenman:

Yeah. The brand is amazing and gorgeous. What are some of the biggest challenges you've faced as a female entrepreneur in the whisky industry? How often did you—or do you still—encounter skepticism, bias based on your gender, either from customers or suppliers or within the industry? And how do you navigate all that?

Annabel Thomas:

This has really been a journey for me, I would say, because I think I had been lucky enough coming into the whisky industry to really not have encountered very much bias at all in my previous roles. So it honestly wasn't anything I thought about. And even for the first four years, we were raising investment for a couple of years, then we were building a distillery, we weren't really public. No one said anything. I just kind of—honestly it didn't occur to me. But once we were public, i.e., we started distilling, we had our website, etc., I started going to events, being more public. People started making comments like, "Do you even like whisky?" "Do you actually like whisky?" "Is your husband doing this with you?" All of these kind of things. However, I would say that these come 99.9% from the public, not from the industry. I would say that the industry, by which I mean retailers, bartenders, distributors, whoever it is, and other whisky makers like within Scotch and more broadly, are both totally agnostic about gender. I've only had one very negative experience on that, which is pretty good. I've been doing this 12 years now. But it is the more general perception, I think, of women drinking whisky, women making whisky from the general public that is an issue. And I think, I mean, I don't personally find it a big deal. I've got fairly thick skin, and you also come up with responses over time that make people really stop and think. And I hope that actually by having those conversations, maybe you can start to break down those assumptions. If people say, "But do you actually like whisky?" I now say, "Well, would you ask me that if I was a man?" And suddenly they realize what they've asked. And I don't say in an aggressive way, but hopefully it makes them think, "Oh god, yeah, I've really got some inbuilt assumptions there that maybe I should review." But I think there is a broader issue around these assumptions of who drinks whisky and who makes whisky and so on. And I think the issue that that has led to sometimes for us, is that people assume Nc'nean is a whisky for women or a "women's whisky," which it absolutely is not. The whole point of Nc'nean is whisky for everybody. I think that comes from this assumption that if a woman is making whisky or running a distillery, they must be making a special kind of women's whisky, which is not great. We also get comments like, "Oh, it's Nc'nean, that's the whisky made by women." I'm like, "No, we have actually a perfectly gender-balanced team of 50% men and 50% women, and we've got women and men in all parts of the business. It's not made by women. The company happens to be run by a woman." So I think there is still a lot of work to do to change consumer perceptions of who drinks whisky and who works in the industry. And I think the industry as a whole also has some work to do to get more women into it, but actually, it's not nearly as male-dominated as maybe some people perceive from the outside. There are actually a lot of women in the industry, but maybe they're not visible enough. And I think that does impact how consumers perceive it still. So I think one of the things that we can quite easily do is just make women in the industry more visible. And I think that would really help.

Gaby Eisenman:

Yeah, absolutely. The "whisky for women" thing, like that would never have even crossed my mind. That's just so interesting.

Annabel Thomas:

Yeah. And what would whisky for women be anyway?

Gaby Eisenman:

I don't know.

Annabel Thomas:

Unless I colored it pink? Ha!

Gaby Eisenman:

Yeah. That, to me, is just so strange and so annoying. But once you explained it, I guess it kind of makes sense, when you're thinking about the general public and how biased they still are in a lot of ways.

Annabel Thomas:

Yeah, exactly.

Gaby Eisenman:

Do you ever find yourself drawing on qualities traditionally associated with women, like warmth, humor, tendency to please others—consciously or unconsciously—as a strategy for achieving success in this very male-dominated space?

Annabel Thomas:

Not consciously. Whether those would be strategies for success or failure, I don't know. I think what I do consciously do is play into the fact that people remember the fact a woman has started a whisky distillery, which to me, historically, like as I was starting it, was not a remarkable thing. It was nowhere in our initial brand planning that this would be a thing. But we've discovered that people think it's really fascinating and want to write about it, want to talk about it. And I'm all for that. So when it comes to getting press, for example, and just using that to drive awareness of Nc'nean, I'm all for it, and we leverage it as much as we can.

Gaby Eisenman:

I guess I was projecting a little bit of my own tendencies as a woman in the industry. People pleasing, a lot of smiling, tilting my head, making you comfortable, you know?

Annabel Thomas:

Well, I probably do all of that, just not consciously. Or not strategically. Right. I think it's just how I am. And whether that is helpful or not helpful in the bigger picture, I don't know.

Gaby Eisenman:

Right. Same. I find myself unconsciously doing all of those things. And whether or not it yields better results— Like if I consciously tried to do the opposite and acted more like a man, what would happen? I guess I've seen a little bit of that in action, and it's not always well received. What do you believe needs to change in the whisky industry to make it more inclusive and welcoming for women? You mentioned that women in the industry need to be more visible.

Annabel Thomas:

Yep, definitely more visible. I think that's about profiling women in the industry, for example. But I also think there are some other things that we need to do, making sure that the broader on-trade are educated about the fact there's actually lots of women that drink whisky because women do still get that reaction of, "Are you sure you want a whisky?" when they go and ask for one at a bar. There's a really amazing charity in the UK called the Our Whiskey Foundation, and they have done really incredible work generating stock photos of people drinking whisky that include both men and women. And that's such a small and obvious thing. But a lot of the stock photography that was being used was predominantly men. And then that just reinforces these perceptions and biases. So I think as an industry, making sure that not only women in the industry, i.e., who work in it, are visible, but just on Instagram, making sure that your Instagram feed as a brand has men and women in it and not just women giving something to their dad on Father's Day, like actually drinking it and participating, I think is really important. And I think—and this doesn't just go for women—I think trying to break down some of those barriers—and I don't think this goes for the whole of the whisky industry, I think it's very much about Scotch—but breaking down some of those barriers about how Scotch can be drunk, about what it must be, about whether you must understand the difference between a single malt and a blend and whether it was made in the Highlands or the Lowlands, and reducing the barriers to getting into Scotch, I think is really important for bringing new kind of consumers from all walks of life in and making them feel welcome.

Gaby Eisenman:

Right, making it less intimidating, more approachable. Yeah, people tend to be intimidated really quickly and then it kind of drives them away.

Annabel Thomas:

Exactly. But I really think a lot about what happened in the wine industry in this space. If you think about the French wine industry 60 years ago, there was so much about, "Do you know the difference between Right Bank and Left Bank Bordeaux and blah, blah, blah?" And then New World wine came in and they were like, "Do you want red or white?" And I think we can learn a lot from that. I don't think that navel gazing from the French wine industry did them any good at all. And I think we need to take a more basic perspective when it comes to our expectations of how deeply consumers are actually going to engage in the product that we're making. We can all do the navel gazing internally, but let's make sure that externally we're projecting something that's very accessible and exciting and enticing.

Gaby Eisenman:

Yes. That's all very well said. What is your vision for the future of your distillery and the whisky industry as a whole? And how do you see the role of women evolving in the next decade or so?

Annabel Thomas:

Um, future of Nc'nean, relatively speaking, we're still really early in our journey. We've only had whisky in bottles for just over four years. And it's really boring, but we just need to continue growing and spreading the word. We're still really early. There's still lots of people who haven't heard of Nc'nean. Getting the word out there is what we're all about. Obviously, alongside doing the other things that we spend a lot of time thinking about, like innovating and how we make the spirit, putting really interesting releases and single casts out there and so on. And also, we're still always working on improving our own sustainability. What I would love to see for the industry, and in particular Scotch, is all of the things we've already talked about, making sure that the rest of the industry goes on that sustainability journey as quickly as possible, making sure it becomes more accessible, more relaxed, more inclusive. And hopefully that translates to women, more women in the industry. And we have actually run a Women's Whisky Week previously at Nc'nean, where we invite a few women to the distillery for a week to experience everything that whisky distilling involves. And we tend to pick from— There's a brewing and distilling university in Edinburgh, so those people are actually considering their careers. And trying to make sure that women on that course give as much consideration to whisky as they do to other types of distilling that they could go into, I think is really important. So I think the more other distilleries can do things like that, the better.

Gaby Eisenman:

That's so cool. I want to come for a week.

Annabel Thomas:

Everyone does. The first time we did it, we got like 400 applications from all over the world.

Gaby Eisenman:

I'm not surprised. Yeah, that sounds incredible. Shall we taste?

Annabel Thomas:

Yeah. Okay. Let's start with this one, which is Nc'nean Organic. This is our flagship. So when I was starting Nc'nean, I was quite clear in what kind of whisky I wanted to make. I wanted it to be elegant and fruity, and I wanted it to be something that, if you were just starting on your whisky journey, was approachable, but also something with the depth and complexity that a seasoned whisky drinker could also really appreciate it. And our broader philosophy in making whisky is very much focused on the spirit. Yes, of course the casks are important, and we spend a lot of money and time making sure that we get the very best casts that are available. But I also think there's perhaps been not enough focus on the spirit in the Scotch industry, and that's partly because, historically, if you're releasing a 20, 30-year-old whisky, it doesn't matter that much what spirit you made 20 years ago. You know, long time in cask can cover all manner of sins. But we're a new distillery, we were never gonna wait 20 years to release our whisky. So we had to do that, but I also think philosophically it's the right place to focus. We put an awful lot of effort into making a new make spirit, so before it even goes into cask, that is delicious right off the bat.

Gaby Eisenman:

I wish I could— I want to taste it one day. I love tasting new make.

Annabel Thomas:

It's been described as the best new make in Scotland, and I have not done a comprehensive tasting, but it is pretty damn good, so.

Gaby Eisenman:

That's pretty cool. Wow.

Annabel Thomas:

And so lots of the flavors that you get in Nc'nean Organic come from that new make. So it's very citrusy, it's very bright, juicy, those kind of soft stone fruits. We also just have a very creamy but clean new make. So it's not got funk and things in it. And that comes from all these decisions we make at every single point through the process. So we mash slowly, the use of organic barley, we use two yeasts, we ferment for super long times, we distill really slowly, we take really high cut points on the stills. All of those little decisions contribute to this to this new make.

Gaby Eisenman:

It's so delicious. It just had this full experience of first a little bit of grapefruit and then some banana. And it is so delicate, and elegant is the perfect word.

Annabel Thomas:

And so this then goes into three cask types, and they all play a very specific role. It's like in a play, they each have their character. So there's 55% STR red wine cask, which is shaved, toasted, and recharred red wine casks. That was a real thing of Jim Swan, who was our master distiller. He kind of developed that cast type and set up the cooperage in Spain to produce them to his exacting specifications. So those casks are super active, they bring a lot of flavor and a lot of color very quickly, and they contribute to the spicy notes that you get towards the end. We then have 43% ex-Bourbon, so totally classic Scotch cask. I like the combination of those two casks because the ex-Bourbon lets a bit more of that spirit shine through because it's not so impactful on the spirit, but it also brings a lovely sweetness. And then 2% ex-sherry, so that's more meant to be kind of seasoning and depth. It doesn't really taste sherried, but it plays its own little role there.

Gaby Eisenman:

And is it a specific kind of sherry or do you—

Annabel Thomas:

Olroso.

Gaby Eisenman:

Okay, great. It's lovely.

Annabel Thomas:

And of course, all non-chill filtered, non-colored, all organic. Everything we produce is organic.

Gaby Eisenman:

It's outstanding.

Annabel Thomas:

And you get that lovely creaminess from the organic barley.

Gaby Eisenman:

Yeah, the texture is fantastic, really coats your entire mouth in a really pleasing way.

Annabel Thomas:

And what's interesting is that also helps it stand up to the dilution if you want to drink it with soda.

Gaby Eisenman:

Right. And I love a Scotch and soda. And I love simple Scotch cocktails, too.

Annabel Thomas:

It's a classic! Exactly.

Gaby Eisenman:

I don't know what everyone's problem is.

Annabel Thomas:

I know. And you know, something like a Rob Roy, if you're gonna make a cocktail that is more than two-thirds whisky, you want that whisky to be pretty damn good, and have body and a lot of flavor. Should we taste this one?

Gaby Eisenman:

Yes, please.

Annabel Thomas:

This is Quiet Rebels. We have two seasonal releases a year. The one that comes out in autumn in Europe is called Quiet Rebels, and then there's one that comes out in spring in Europe that is called Huntress. And they come to the US four or so months later. So, the Quiet Rebels series, which is what we have here, is all about celebrating our team. And every year it's a different team member's turn based on the order in which they join the company. So you get to basically design your own whisky with our blender. And Matt will sit down with a person whose turn it is about a year in advance and try and design a whisky to something that they like. Today we're tasting Quiet Rebels Amy, and Amy is our Head of Sustainability. She's amazing. She started with us in 2018 as our visitor manager, and she's the only person that has ever managed to get to Nc'nean by public transport.

Gaby Eisenman:

Wow.

Annabel Thomas:

And that is a serious feat. She had to flag down a school bus to make the last 11 miles work and then walk for a mile. And basically, I didn't even need to interfere at that point. I was like, you have definitely got the job.

Gaby Eisenman:

That's a great story.

Annabel Thomas:

And her role has evolved since then, from visitor manager to Head of Sustainability. And she set Matt a particularly hard task for this whisky. She said, "I want something that not only reflects kind of whisky that I like, but also that reflects my role and passion for sustainability." She loves Port-finished whiskies, so we decided to look down that route as something that we could do. And I guess what I didn't say is that the Quiet Rubble series tends to focus more on cask finishes and cask combinations because we're only designing these a year in advance. So we can't play with the spirit, obviously, at that point. And what we found is a French fortified wine called Maury, which is made in a similar way to Port. Obviously, it's not Port because it's not made in Portugal, but it is made in a similar way, so it has that similar taste profile that she loves. But we found this tiny producer called Le Clot de l'Origine, who had some barrels available. And Le Clot de l'Origine are an incredibly sustainable vineyard. They actually farm the vines biodynamically, they practice agroforestry, so they actually have got trees planted amongst the vines and all these other amazing things. And all of their wines, including the Maury, are certified organic. And so that so nicely brought those two things together. But that's part of the cask finish in here. There's also STR and ex-Bourbon in here as well. It's bottled a little bit higher, so it's 48 and a half. And it's definitely got added sweetness for me.

Gaby Eisenman:

Absolutely. I definitely get that fortified wine quality.

Annabel Thomas:

Exactly. Yeah. Added sweetness, a little bit of funk. But it also really brings out the kind of citrus elements for me as well.

Gaby Eisenman:

Also, like this sort of apple orchard, like really fresh, crisp apples. It's really nice. And it's such a beautiful concept, too, to show love and appreciation for your staff, who I'm sure, as a relatively new company, have really helped build this with you. So to honor them is just really fantastic.

Annabel Thomas:

And Amy, for example, the whole reason we bottle in 100% recycled glass, that was her idea. She actually asked me in that same interview that she'd managed to get to on public transport. She said, "Are you going to bottle in 100% recycled glass?" And I was like, "Honestly, I hadn't thought about it. But now you've suggested that, yes, of course we will." Now, what a great idea. And I think that's one thing I've found with Nc'nean, is that whilst I brought the initial we really want to be sustainable philosophy, you then attract people who also feel that. And then the whole effect snowballs, and we're like on the ever-increasing mission, now backed by the whole team, to do that rather than it me just being from the top, like this must be what happens. What's been interesting in the Nc'nean journey is that if you think back to 12 years ago when I was trying to raise funding for Nc'nean, no one recognized sustainability is an important thing. And then, of course, over the last 12 years, we've seen this huge change, especially in the whisky world, with the kind of appreciation of how important sustainability is. And we've just got to keep going on that journey. None of us are there yet. We're not perfect. Yes, we're doing way more than anyone else in the industry, but there's still so much that we need to work on. These bottles, for example, the carbon footprint of these is 40% lower, because it's recycled glass, than a normal bottle. But it's still made with fossil fuels, and that is a problem. If the progress we've seen on sustainability in the last 10 years starts to wane, I think we globally have a massive problem. It is quite clear to, I think most people, that the world as a whole needs to make enormous progress on sustainability. And I think if we don't continue pushing forwards on that, we're going to have enormous issues. I think as an industry, we have a lot further to go. And we need, as a real, honestly, a moral obligation to keep up that progress and keep up the pressure. And that I think is in the face of a lot of skepticism. And I think everything that is going on in the world at the moment is not gonna help with that mission. But I think that just means we have to try harder.

Gaby Eisenman:

Well, you're doing more than your part. So thank you.

Annabel Thomas:

Well, hopefully what we're doing can also help change the rest of the Scotch industry quicker. I always say that that's a really important part of what we're trying to do, because we are relatively small. And we could be perfect, but if we're perfect and no one else does anything, the total impact is relatively small. If we can get everyone else to change quicker, great. And we've already seen that. We've seen loads of people using 100% recycled glass after we were the first to do it. And the really big guys in Scotland are introducing biomass boilers to power their distilleries, and actually came to see Nc'nean and talked to our distillery manager to understand how it was done. So we know that we are, little by little, starting to have that impact.

Gaby Eisenman:

That's very cool. That's really great to hear. That must have made you happy.

Annabel Thomas:

Yeah, really happy. And we try to do that actively as well. We publish a sustainability report every year, and we do hear from people in the industry, "Oh, your sustainability report landed on my desk as an example of best in class," and things. So we know that that is getting out there.

Gaby Eisenman:

That's great. You're not keeping it a secret. That's really, really cool. I love it. These are gorgeous, so thank you so much for bringing them to us.

Annabel Thomas:

Thanks for having me. Thanks for all of your support.

Gaby Eisenman:

Absolutely.

Harmon Skurnik:

Skurnik Unfiltered is recorded at Skrunik Wines & Spirits headquarters in the Flatiron District of New York City, which is why you might hear some city noises as we go along, like horns honking. If you found the conversation interesting, please consider liking, subscribing, and leaving a review. You can stay up to date on our show and upcoming events by following @skurnikwines on Instagram and visiting our website at skurnik.com

Contributor

Harmon Skurnik

Host
Contributor

Dan Veraldi

Producer
Contributor

Will Dowler

Producer
Contributor

Annabel Thomas

Guest
Contributor

Gaby Eisenman

Guest